[adnoh]

I read on one of these forums where someone said the torque converter doesnt actually lock up on the pioneer. I really dont know much about it, but taking that as a fact made me wonder if they could make it lock up, essentially making an overdrive for the pioneer. Maybe use a push button on the gearshift lever like they did on cars and trucks. Anyone with knowledge about this tranny know if this would be possible ?

 

[Moose]

The torque converter is a basic automotive style. So in theory, you could. I don't know that you would gain anything. Her power would be spread pretty thin if you were looking to achieve an overdrive. I think all you would accomplish is some shuddering and shaking top end. It would be a bogged down mess.

Honda went to a dual map on this unit to try and give the transmission more "range" to fit what people want.

 

[Moose]

Also. And overdrive is basically just another gear. Just with a switch to disable. So when you see a 4 speed with oveedrive. Really its just a 5 speed. But it does sound fancy.

 

[adnoh]

The torque converter is a basic automotive style. So in theory, you could. I don't know that you would gain anything. Her power would be spread pretty thin if you were looking to achieve an overdrive. I think all you would accomplish is some shuddering and shaking top end. It would be a bogged down mess.

Honda went to a dual map on this unit to try and give the transmission more "range" to fit what people want.

Yes horsepower would come into play at that end of the power range. I guess it would depend on how much slip is built into the torque converter to begin with . If its close to lock up already I think it would be ok???. If there is alot of slip built in then yeah we would get a bogged down mess. My thinking was it would be able to get a little more top end ( if horsepower would allow it ) without actually having another gear in the tranny.

 

[Moose]

Overdrive, isn't just achieved through a different torque converter. You need to put a gearbox to the tail shaft or integrate it into the tranny. Then you need to adjust your torque converter and its clutching to match up well to the additional gear. And run a button or new shift position. Hope that makes sense.

 

[adnoh]

Overdrive, isn't just achieved through a different torque converter. You need to put a gearbox to the tail shaft or integrate it into the tranny. Then you need to adjust your torque converter and its clutching to match up well to the additional gear. And run a button or new shift position. Hope that makes sense.

So if i follow you correctly, there is no way to lock the converter electronically without having a gearbox or other mechanical parts added somewhere . One of the reasons i got to thinking about this was in my duramax you can tell when the converter locks up by the drop in rpms. Made me wonder if it was possible in the honda at some point with a change in the ignition box or something but I guess that wont work. Oh well ,onward to my next great idea

 

[DG Rider]

Non-lock up Torque converters have no mechanical connection from engine to drive train. Everything is passed through the fluid used...in this case, engine oil.

This slippage caused few problems, other than the need for extra cooling, since this slippage is essentially turning mechanical energy into heat energy via viscus friction. In most cases like acceleration, its actually beneficial...

However, one of the problems it does cause is reduced efficiency, for obvious reasons. Because of this, engineers got the bright ideal of adding a clutch inside of the converter, applied via hydraulic pressure when needed. These came into widespread use during the late 70's...likely due to the first oil embargo.

The Pioneer has no such device in its torque converter, so unless you're an engineer with large amounts of machine equipment at you're disposal ( and don't forget electronics to make it work ), there would be no way to add one.

Moose mentioned stall speed, and different design factors go into that. One old drag racing trick is to fine tune the converter's stall and flash RPM by changing to ATF with different viscosity, with thicker ATF dropping those RPM by a small amount, or vice-versa.

This is the reason i always advise against using thicker than stock oil in these machines, since they have been known to bog at times. Don't know if there would be a big enough change in RPM to make a difference on a Pioneer, but it sure seems like a lot of the power complaints come from guys with thicker oils. If anything, the Pioneer could use a higher stall converter.

And that leads me to another thought: Would aftermarket companies make higher RPM stall converters for the Pioneer?
This would have the same effect as clutching mods on a CVT machine for big tires, raising the RPM and allowing the Pioneer to get further into its torque range before really starting to transfer power ( and the tradeoff of running higher RPM everywhere ). For certain people like hardcore mudders, this would be a godsend.
I really expected this when the Rincon came out, but it never did happen. The Big Red didn't sell well enough for it. Now that the Pioneer seems to be selling like crazy, maybe someone will do it, since i would guess that they all use the same TC. Cost would be a factor, as would getting the PGM-FI not to get angry with seeing higher RPM at a given speed.

Just some thoughts, out loud...

 

[DG Rider]

Sorry...after the first paragraph above, it should read "As a result, there is always some slippage in a torque converter".

I really wish the mods would extend the edit time frame....

 

[rich450es]

Sorry...after the first paragraph above, it should read "As a result, there is always some slippage in a torque converter".

I really wish the mods would extend the edit time frame....

the moderators don't have any control over the times for editing ..... it is controled by people way up the food chain from us .....lol

 

[Dick]

I am planning to switch to a lighter synthetic engine oil next oil change. I will try to take note if I can notice any difference.

 

[Moose]

DG. I am running 10w-40 in mine. Full syn. Mobile 1 racing 4T. I don't feel like it has robbed anything. Its hard to say if the shift points have changed by a noticeable amount, as the temperature here has been varying wildly.

I can tell you, Dicks reporting of the affects of lost back pressure on the motor coincide with my tinkering with the air filter. I feel like the idle speed of the motor has changed since installing the free flowing filter. Maybe 50RPM faster. Which makes the Pioneer seem more responsive as you have decreased the amount of throttle to engage. Again, I can't give exact numbers, but I depend on my hearing for a lot of feedback from motors, and they tell me idle has increased. His loss of what could of not been a lot of back pressure caused major effects to the performance. So much so, that its almost unbelievable.

I see Dicks reporting and my findings encouraging. Soon as PC makes a programmable tuner, I am hoping this motors sensitivity can be converted to real world gains.

 

[DG Rider]

DG. I am running 10w-40 in mine. Full syn. Mobile 1 racing 4T. I don't feel like it has robbed anything. Its hard to say if the shift points have changed by a noticeable amount, as the temperature here has been varying wildly.

I can tell you, Dicks reporting of the affects of lost back pressure on the motor coincide with my tinkering with the air filter. I feel like the idle speed of the motor has changed since installing the free flowing filter. Maybe 50RPM faster. Which makes the Pioneer seem more responsive as you have decreased the amount of throttle to engage. Again, I can't give exact numbers, but I depend on my hearing for a lot of feedback from motors, and they tell me idle has increased. His loss of what could of not been a lot of back pressure caused major effects to the performance. So much so, that its almost unbelievable.

I see Dicks reporting and my findings encouraging. Soon as PC makes a programmable tuner, I am hoping this motors sensitivity can be converted to real world gains.

Ive always felt the superior flow characteristics of synthetic allow it to mimic thinner mineral grade oil, so you probably haven't lost anything.

Likewise, i went to 10-30 honda syn at 1st change, and it seems like the converter is just a bit looser than the mineral 10-30 it came with...but this may be an illusion anyway, and i'd never say yes unless i had conclusive proof. At most, its a very tiny change.

It may make no noticeable diff anyway...just a theory i have. I wish i had time to test with a tach and maybe some 10-20 and other grades to see if it makes any difference.

FWIW, i will probably go with Amsoil 0-40 next time...

 

[Dick]

Moose (my graphic descriptions aside) I could not believe that loss of back pressure would make that much difference either, when the mechanic told me that I figured they did not find the problem and I would be bringing it back in. I could go along about 30 mph and kick it to the floor and it would not pickup until I let off the throttle some. It appears little things can make a big difference in these machines and I don't doubt you can see a difference in the air filter now.

DG, I seen where you mentioned that raising the front of the machine increased the amount of oil you could drain out. I was wondering how I could get more out. I am not happy about leaving 25% of the mineral oil in the engine when I switch to synthetic (or even during regular oil change). I wonder if raising it higher would help?

 

[Moose]

I am not happy about leaving 25% of the mineral oil in the engine when I switch to synthetic (or even during regular oil change). I wonder if raising it higher would help?

I have to think the higher you go, the more you will get out Dick. I think doing it safely would be the biggest issue. One of us could always try at their next oil change to ratchet it up higher and higher to see how much more comes out.

 

[Moose]

Since we were on the subject viscosity, I was looking around the net and found this site. Don't know if either of you have checked it out. Seemed pretty interesting, but I am not the oil guru that Dick is.

Putting the Simple Back into Viscosity - Bob is the Oil Guy

 

[DG Rider]

My head hurts...

 

[Moose]

My head hurts...

Hahaha. Reading that site. I feel like Neo in the Matrix, when he proclaims "I know Kung Fu". Instead. I know viscosity!

The headache subsides after about 40 minutes....

 

[DG Rider]

DG, I seen where you mentioned that raising the front of the machine increased the amount of oil you could drain out. I was wondering how I could get more out. I am not happy about leaving 25% of the mineral oil in the engine when I switch to synthetic (or even during regular oil change). I wonder if raising it higher would help?

If the converter is like a cars, it probably holds quite a bit on its own...so yeah, maybe stand the thing up as high as you can.

 

[Dick]

The picture below is a pioneer torque convert, it is hard to tell the actual size but it does look like it would hold a fair amount of oil that would probaly never drain out. It does look very similar to a car.

 

[toodeep]

Here you go....